Should nightclubs pay for cops?

Public safety 14 Comments

Should owners of pubs, bars and nightclubs who are unable to control the behavior of their patrons be provided with a free, taxpayer funded security service?

Most people would probably say no, yet this would appear to be exactly what happens whenever a taxpayer-funded police force is required to respond to incidents which occur on or around the premises of such establishments.

To be sure, security staff employed by the establishment are usually able to handle the majority of incidents, say a couple of blokes getting into a bit of push and shove, without too much difficulty.

Nevertheless, where matters escalate out of control, police are left to clean up the mess, necessitating the use of a taxpayer funded service and costing the taxpayer money.

This is of little concern to owners of the establishments concerned, as they do not have to pay a dime even if their security procedures are lax and/or police involvement is required on a frequent basis.

This should not be the case, according to Rolf Gerritsen, a researcher the Charles Darwin University in Australia. Mr. Gerritsen, who has proposed that nightclub owners be charged a fee whenever police assistance is required at their venues.

Under Mr. Gerrison’s plan, owners of nightclubs, pubs or bars, would be would be required to pay a set fee any time police have to be called as a result of disturbances which occur within a ‘buffer zone’ around the immediate vicinity of their establishments.

 
Pro’s and Con’s
Rather than express a definitive viewpoint with respect to such a proposal, I would like to throw open the floor and see what you, the readers, think.

For starters, here are a few of my ideas about the advantages and disadvantages of the idea:

 
Pro’s:
(1) Financial incentive to improve security.

Charging a fee whenever police assistance becomes necessary provides an incentive for owners of drinking establishments to adopt a more diligent approach with respect to security measures. These could include, for example, use of metal detectors for purposes of locating concealed weapons, or denial of entry to patrons who had been involved in security incidents in the past.

These types of incentives could lead to safer environments for the majority of patrons who wish to enjoy a harmless social event in a sensible fashion.

 
(2) Fairness.

It would seem to be fair enough that owners of establishments, rather than taxpayers, should foot the bill for their use of the police force as a public resource.

The principle of ‘user pays,’ which operates in many other areas of public service, is generally considered to be fair, and it could be well argued that owners of drinking establishments, not taxpayers, should assume the financial responsibility for the public safety risks which are inherent within their business activities.

In addition, it would also seem fair that owners who are able to maintain a reasonably safe environment should be entitled to enjoy a cost advantage over competitors with less safe environments, as they would if owners were charged for use of police on a per visit basis.

 
Con’s
(1) Reluctance to call police.

Charging owners of drinking venues for police assistance may result in an undue level of reluctance on behalf of some venues to call the police, potentially placing the safety of patrons and staff in undue jeopardy in the event that a serious incident does occur.

The police force is better equipped than internal security staff to deal with incidents where patrons are placed under severe threat of serious injury.

 
(2) Patrons, not establishments or their staff, cause the trouble.

This is a pretty weak argument in my view, but some may feel that it is the conduct of patrons, rather than staff, that result in the need for police involvement, and that it is unfair that venue owners should be punished for the conduct of those who merely use their premises and consume the services which they provide.

Drinking venues, some would argue, should be held accountable for the actions of their staff – not for their customers.

 
Over to you
What do you think? Do you support the charging of fees where drinking venues require police assistance?

14 Responses to “Should nightclubs pay for cops?”

  1. Brad Shorr Says:
    March 13th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    Andrew, This is an interesting question, one that’s never occurred to me. The “let the free market work” argument might encourage establishment owners to keep their patrons under control. This would be a good thing. However, if the owners chose not to, the result could be a very dangerous place indeed. As a potential patron, I’d be a bit uncomfortable going into certain taverns knowing the police weren’t a phone call away. My view is that if it’s a place that’s open to the public, the police, an organization created to protect the public, should have jurisdiction. As a taxpayer, I don’t mind footing the bill. It’s a better use of my money that what much of our tax money funds.

    Brad Shorrs last blog post..Why I Love Working with Consultants

  2. Chris Rohde Says:
    March 13th, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    Brad, solid points, but what about those bars where it is required on almost a nightly basis that there be a semi-circle of police outside the door when the place closes down, because they are that sure something bad will happen?

    I saw that a lot when I was stationed in San Diego, and while it seemed to work, it always struck me as a gigantic waste of these police officers’ time.

    Chris Rohdes last blog post..The Best Explanation I’ve Heard Yet

  3. drew Says:
    March 13th, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    Brad,

    You are not wrong with respect to your last comment.

    With respect to your comment about the police being one phone call away, one possibility is that patrons themselves could call the police on their cell phone.

    That said, calling the police is really the responsibility of the venue and its staff, not individual patrons. And calling the police yourself might not be possible in the event that you yourself are caught up in the trouble.

  4. Brad Shorr Says:
    March 13th, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    Chris, Good point – I do not frequent that kind of establishment, so there’s probably a lot more to this than I realize. Sounds like a bar like the one you describe in San Diego is a public safety hazard. Maybe it should be shut down? Andrew, You’re right about not having time to call if you find yourself in the middle of a brawl. When you walk into a bar, you really are putting yourself in the hands of other patrons and the staff.

    Brad Shorrs last blog post..Why I Love Working with Consultants

  5. drew Says:
    March 13th, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    Chris,

    Thanks for your comment and welcome to my blog.

    I hope you enjoy many of the discussions on this site.

    Unfortunately, there seem to be some nightclubs that just attract trouble. I don’t know exactly what should be done about these kinds of places (apart from staying away from them myself) but it does seem that the police presence you describe, though no doubt necessary, could be minimized or avoided if the place was cleaned up in the first place.

  6. drew Says:
    March 13th, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    Brad,

    If the venue that Chris mentioned requires that level of police presence, then certainly license revocation should be given serious consideration.

    You are right on with your comment about putting yourself in the hands of other patrons.

    I recall one occasion about ten years ago when I was with two of my friends in a pool hall. We had not been drinking at all and were just enjoying a quiet game between ourselves, when a drunken idiot came from nowhere and simply threw a punch at one of my friends, from which my friend sustained a fractured skull.

    My friend, who had been chatting to me and otherwise minding his own business, did absolutely nothing at all to provoke the attack.

    The idea that it can always takes two to start trouble can be a myth – all it takes is one who has had too much to drink.

  7. ladykat Says:
    March 14th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    This is an interesting issue. The City of Seattle has been wrestling with its nightclub industry for quite some time. On the one hand, there have been some pretty violent incidents in some of these nightclubs. (Let’s limit the discussion to legitimate clubs with functioning business licenses, not illegal raves). It’s difficult to say what came first. Are there gang members or rowdies that simply select a nightclub out of the blue or does the nightclub intentionally attract that kind of crowd by its environment and music? Who knows for sure? A little bit of A, a little bit of B…

    On the other hand, nightclubs are economic activity. They contribute to the economy through taxes. And their patrons may spill over into surrounding businesses and help them out too.

    The other issue is that there may be accusations of racism and harassment that accompany unwanted attention by a government trying to regulate a nightclub.

    What to do?

    I think it’s the age-old question of incentive. What is the incentive for the nightclub owners to clamp down on their patrons? Or clean up their act, but without resorting to Michael Bolton music all time?

    I think that legitimate owners want a stable environment in which they can make money and grow their business. I know that Washington State has a Labor and Industries program in which businesses can get a portion of their L&I payments back if they are able to keep worker injuries below a certain threshold. Could there be a tax incentive tied in to number of police calls? Would it be better to structure an incentive system instead of a punitive system in which owners are punished for calling out the police by paying for them? But would it be fair to other businesses who are responsible citizens anyway, but wouldn’t get a reward because they are not a nightclub.

    So many questions…

    ladykats last blog post..HBO Documentary on Factory Farm Premiers March 16th

  8. Andrew Says:
    March 14th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

    Ladykat,

    A very thought provoking response. You seem to have a wonderful ability to think outside the square and look at things from a different angle with respect to some of the discussions on this blog in recent times.

    I agree that the scope of the discussion should be limited only to properly licensed drinking venues.

    I like your thinking with respect to the tax incentive, an idea which may certainly receive a more enthusiastic response due to its incentive based nature (as opposed to the punitive nature of Mr. Gerritsen’s proposal).

    As you say, there are certainly some difficulties associated with the idea, particularly those associated with the apparent unfairness on businesses who would fall outside the scope of the reward system, not to mention the cost of such payments to taxpayers.

    But no doubt there are ways to overcome these types of difficulties. One possibility – a credits, rebates and penalties system, whereby drinking establishments are allowed to receive police assistance on a certain number of occasions during a specified period without incurring any penalty. At the end of the period, drinking venues would either have to pay a penalty or be entitled to a rebate according to whether or not the amount of times which they required police assistance either exceeded their allowance or did not reach their allowance.

    Provided that allowances for number of occasions of receiving police assistance were determined on a reasonable basis, such a scheme would punish those venues which prove to be a less safe drinking environment whilst providing those establishments which provide a relatively safe drinking environment with the entitlement to receive a financial reward.

    Just a thought.

    Andrews last blog post..Should nightclubs pay for cops?

  9. Natural Says:
    March 15th, 2009 at 3:39 am

    Hi Andrew, if an establishment has a problem controlling their crowd, then I say yes, they should have to foot the bill for cops.

    I went to an event that had several thousand people, I can’t remember how many, but an arena, 8-10K people and not one cop was need. why because the people there knew what was expected of them.

    Night clubs are like parents, they have to lay down the law at the door. If you can’t follow the rules or even think about breaking them, well then you are not welcomed back. At the very least if not the cops, some kind of security. If your establishment attracts trouble, you have to ask yourself why.

    Naturals last blog post..Pet Peeve Friday

  10. drew Says:
    March 16th, 2009 at 7:07 am

    Hi Natural.

    Thanks for your comment and welcome to my blog.

    It does seem that some venues tend to attract trouble a great deal more than others, even when they are in similar locations and appear to attract patrons of similar socio-economic classes. This does tend to suggest that the venues themselves do have a considerable degree of influence over the behavior of patrons.

  11. Mitch Says:
    March 19th, 2009 at 6:18 am

    I will say no, but with qualifications. The deal is that establishments are really only responsible for what happens on their property. Once they get people outside, they’re now under no more obligation to protect or prevent anything from happening, in which case it does become a police responsibility. At that point it’s about prevention, and if the community hopes to keep the worst from happening, here come the police.

    I like what you said in comment #5, though, in that some types of clubs do happen to attract the worst elements, in which case maybe those areas just don’t need to have those types of establishments.

    Mitchs last blog post..Visa Black Card

  12. Andrew Says:
    March 19th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    Hi Mitch.

    Thanks for your comment and welcome to my blog.

    I am inclined to agree with your comment about with respect to nightclubs being strictly responsible only for incidents that occur on their actual premises, as opposed to the immediate public area surrounding their premises.

    The plan which I mentioned earlier in the discussion (put forth by Mr. Gerrison) mentions nightclubs being responsible for ‘buffer zone,’ including both the area of their premises and that immediately surrounding their premises, and charged a fee every time police assistance was required within this buffer zone.

    But I agree with you – the area outside the venue concerned represents public space and I would not think that owners of drinking venues can be held responsible for what occurs within a public space.

    Accordingly, if nightclubs are forced to pay for police assistance, they should only be forced to pay with respect to incidents which occur on their premises, and not those which occur in a public space.

    Andrews last blog post..Should the illicit drugs industry be legalized?

  13. Cath Lawson Says:
    March 25th, 2009 at 3:40 am

    Hi Andrew – I certainly do think the venues should pay. I went for a quiet drink in my local pub in December. Some lout started a fight with one of my friends as he was eavesdropping on our conversation and obviously didn’t believe in freedom of speech.

    There was nobody there to break it up – just too young girls behind the bar. I did tried to get the lout of my friend but to be honest I wasn’t much use. The lout pushed me over. And the landlord eventually arrived and persuaded me not to call the police, as the pub might get into trouble.

    A few weeks later, I’m still having really bad back and neck pain and I’ve since discovered that the guy who did it has been convicted of GBH for assaulting someone else in the same pub a few years earlier.

    I think these places should not only have to pay for their only police and security – but it should be compulsory to have someone there. I just won’t go anywhere if they don’t now – it really isn’t worth the risk.

  14. Andrew Says:
    March 25th, 2009 at 7:35 am

    Cath,

    I’m very, very sorry to hear about this incident, and about the ongoing problems which you have experienced with your back and neck as a result.

    It must have been a terrible ordeal, and I certainly hope that the ongoing recovery process is not too unbearable for you.

    I can only imagine that finding out about how the guy assaulted another patron in a prior incident must have just added insult to injury.

    I must say that I am very disappointed with the landlord’s response. Based on your description, it sounds as though he was a lot more focused upon the avoidance of trouble with the police than he was about your physical wellbeing or that of your friends. Shame on him.

    Andrews last blog post..Four rants about AIG’s ‘poor performance’ bonus

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